“Some Other Kind of Mind:” Book Review, The Beatles with Lacan, by Henry Sullivan, Part II.

Authorial speculation and armchair psychoanalysis theorizing that John Lennon’s undoubtedly unstable parenting situation and the conflict between his Aunt Mimi and mother Julia provoked deep trauma and emotional instability in the artist’s life and psyche is not new. References to the emotional tumult caused by Lennon’s early childhood can be found as early as Michael Braun’s work Love Me Do and now can be found in virtually every major contemporaneous work in Beatles historiography.

Psychological examination of Paul McCartney, however, has received far less attention. Even the undisputed trauma involving the death of McCartney’s mother, Mary, when Paul was 14, and its emotional and psychological aftermath, has disappointingly received notably less attention from Beatles’ biographers than the counterpoint of Julia Lennon’s death. (The only biographer to seemingly not follow this pattern is, interestingly enough, Bob Spitz).
McCartney’s noted refusal to “bare his soul,” either in interviews or his lyrics; his acknowledged lack of interest in self-examination, his still-living status (granting him the ability to dismiss outside biographical speculation and psycho-analysis) and his relatively stable childhood, adulthood and seeming success in parenting his own children all ensure that, in contrast to his partner, McCartney’s relative psychological health is widely accepted.

Even Lennon acknowledged this in 1970’s Lennon Remembers, describing McCartney as more “stable” than either himself or Harrison. (When Wenner, predictably, attempted to turn this assessment into a criticism, asking Lennon if he meant “straight,” Lennon (at least at that point in the interview) refused to take the bait, reiterating McCartney’s stability). Indeed, one of the consistent themes regarding reviews of Philip Norman’s 2016 McCartney biography was a tone of appreciation for McCartney’s mental stability in the face of fifty years of unfathomable fame, pressure and devastating personal losses. Acknowledgements of the musician’s relative stability, particularly in comparison to the other rock icons and legends, both living and dead, that serve as his peers, peppered various reviews, including Adam Gopnik’s New Yorker piece. 

While Sullivan, in The Beatles with Lacan, does anoint McCartney as the more psychologically stable member of the Lennon/McCartney dyad (a ranking few would disagree with) he also rejects the premise that McCartney is or was in a psychologically normative state. “The primary enigma about Paul is his self-advertised ‘normalcy,’ but normal people do not conquer the pop world twice over.” (Sullivan, 87). In Sullivan’s interpretation of Lacan, the sudden death of Mary McCartney when Paul was 14 is not enough of an impetus to explain McCartney’s obsession with/reliance on music. Instead, Sullivan categorizes McCartney as an “Obsessive,” another of Lacan’s four major personality types. An “Obsessive” is consumed with the question “Am I alive, or dead?” (110). For McCartney, composing music is a way to answer this question, as only living things are capable of creation.

The roots of this obsession, according to Sullivan, date back to Jim and Mary McCartney’s relationship. While virtually all biographers tend to portray the McCartney marriage as stable and healthy, in The Beatles with Lacan, Sullivan speculatively argues that Mary McCartney resented how quickly Jim’s financial and social stature fell (through no fault of his own, but due to the war) following their marriage, placing her in the role of primary breadwinner. This was particularly difficult for Mary, who had witnessed her own father’s fortunes rise and then fall precipitously, primarily due to his gambling addiction. This, in turn, led to Mary subconsciously transferring her hopes for her family’s status onto her new-born son, James Paul. “The obsessional male is a subject who is over-identified with his mother and the feminine. The son must make up to his mother for the failures of a denigrated father/husband who let her down.” (88). In this reading, Paul grew up with an understanding of his father’s failures and felt an obligation to both make good on his father’s debts (as perceived by Mary) and surpass him both financially and musically. “The message the mother henceforth gave her children in the family structure posited that the model of their father was not worth very much.” (Ibid).

Sullivan’s acknowledgement of the severe difficulty of Mary McCartney’s early life (a harsh, almost Dickensian(1)upbringing which many authors either skim or ignore), at least, merits discussion. (93). So does his argument that McCartney learned his widely acknowledged inability/refusal to reveal his emotional state of mind (see Denny Laine’s famous quote: “Paul is the best person I have met in all my life at hiding his innermost feelings”) at his mother’s knee. According to Sullivan, “Paul was … the son of a woman who repressed and denied her own pain,” and her example influenced her son’s own approach to emotional turmoil and conflict through avoidance, repression and an exhausting work ethic. (93).

Regardless, a fundamental contrast exists between Sullivan’s analysis of McCartney, as opposed to his analysis of Lennon. While there are sources (Pete Shotton, Julia Baird, and Lennon himself, to name a few) providing testimony that Lennon’s unstable childhood, parental abandonment and Mother/Aunt conflict psychologically damaged the musician, Sullivan presents no sources to reinforce his key tenets regarding McCartney. Rather, Sullivan’s psychological profile of Paul rests on three major assumptions: one of which is pure speculation and another which is contradicted by other evidence. First among these assumptions is that no psychologically normative person could have achieved what McCartney has. Second, that Mary McCartney subconsciously resented Jim and transferred that resentment to Paul, burdening him with a diminished perspective of his father and a compulsion to succeed where his father failed. Third, that Paul was a Momma’s boy, whose obsessional nature stemmed from his desire to secure and maintain his position as her favorite and displayed subconscious resentment of/competition with both his father James and his brother Michael in order to keep it. (91).

While the first assumption could provoke fascinating debate, the latter two suffer from lack of evidence to support them, and/or Sullivan’s refusal to acknowledge known evidence which seems to contradict them. Sullivan’s theory that Mary resented Jim is seemingly based purely on authorial psychological speculation, as he presents no sources to reinforce it. Meanwhile his argument that Paul preferred their mother to their father – that he was, in Sullivan’s phrase, a “Momma’s boy,” (98) is directly contradicted by Michael McCartney in his memoir The Macs. When describing their relations with their parents, Michael argues that, while both boys loved both parents, Paul seemingly took after their father while “Mum was my love.” (2) (Michael also includes Paul’s rejoinder that both boys were close to their mother but that Michael, being younger, spent more time with her and relied on her more). Sullivan uses The Macs as a source in The Beatles with Lacan, but fails to acknowledge the existence of Michael’s claims which contradict his assessment of the interpersonal relations within the McCartney family.

Sullivan presents probably Beatles historiography’s harshest interpretation of the relationship between Paul and Jim McCartney, citing Paul’s “Some fathers grow to hate their sons,” (given when the musician was discussing his relationship with John) from his infamous 1981 phone-conversation with Hunter Davies, as a telling Freudian slip, but arguing that the lion’s share of the animosity was directed by Paul toward Jim. He argues that Paul’s gift of the racehorse Drake’s Drum to Jim was both a demonstration of Paul’s greater financial success and a critical poke at Jim’s fondness for gambling, and sometimes losing, on horses. (89).

One element Sullivan curiously omits from this more negative analysis of Paul and Jim’s relationship is the physical discipline practiced by Jim McCartney on both Paul and Michael until their mid-teenaged years, and what impact that physical discipline may have had. The Beatles: The Authorized Biography, The Macs, Ray Coleman’s Yesterday and Today and one of McCartney’s interviews with Howard Stern all reference Jim McCartney’s occasional use of corporal punishment (spankings, slappings, and the belt) in order to maintain discipline. While such corporal punishment was evidently standard for that place and period, Sullivan’s omission (particularly in light of his seeming preference to portray Paul and Jim’s relationship as more contentious than it is commonly portrayed) seems curious.(3)

For Jim McCartney, foremost among Paul’s rebellious elements was his son’s musical partnership with Lennon. Sullivan portrays the interaction between Jim McCartney and John Lennon as unfailingly negative, again neglecting evidence provided by Cynthia Lennon which indicates that, despite his initial warnings to Paul, Jim eventually warmed up to Lennon, well before The Beatles became famous. According to Sullivan, Paul’s relationship with John was a way for the musician to both “let himself off the hook” for his responsibilities/debts, as John spurred Paul to more rebellious behavior than he would have pursued otherwise, and to prove to his own father that success could be achieved by following Paul’s, rather than Jim’s, chosen methods. (95). While Sullivan describes Lennon’s drive to compose music as originating from an effort to sublimate his emotional pain, he argues that McCartney’s compulsion arises from two psychological drives. First, his efforts to prove his still living status and, second, as an escape: “Paul McCartney disposes of only three mechanisms to escape inner oppression of obsessional guilt: music, dope, and work. Paul does not sing, play and compose because the occasion demands, but because music is a muse embedded in him. If he sits too long in a room where an instrument is standing … he becomes increasingly agitated.” (109).

As in his portrayal of Lennon, the primary methodological error in Sullivan’s analysis of McCartney is his aforementioned selective use of evidence and unquestioning acceptance of the most controversial and negative material available. For example: he bases his conclusions on McCartney’s relationships with/views of women (with the exception of a few brief sentences from McCartney’s Playgirl Interview) almost exclusively on the account of Francie Schwartz. (98). While Schwartz’s version of events should certainly enter into the discussion, using her account as the almost all-encompassing manifesto regarding McCartney’s views on women is methodologically lazy. It fails to acknowledge that her accounts date to a relatively narrow, contentious time period, and that extrapolating her views out to cover the entirety of McCartney’s life/views on women is simply unreasonable.

An equivalent mistake, which some Beatles historians have made, would be arguing that the acrimony, apathy and tensions existing within some of the “Let it Be” sessions – another contentious and narrow time period, recorded for posterity – represent not only the band’s relations and studio interaction during that particular time period, but across the entire arc of their careers as a working band in the studio. To put it more simply, they represent a misleading effort by authors to utilize narrow, selective, and contentious choices, ultimately failing to place moments, sources and events in their appropriate context.

Despite these significant issues, The Beatles with Lacan does provide some intriguing issues in its analysis of McCartney’s psychology. First among these is that, just because McCartney fulfilled the role of the more stable member of the Lennon/McCartney dyad, it does not necessarily ensure that he did not/does not struggle with his own traumas and emotional and psychological issues. Second, Sullivan criticizes previous Beatles authors for, in contrast to their depiction of Lennon, refusing to apply any sort of psycho-analytical understanding to McCartney, and instead simply condemning or criticizing his faults. (110). Third, Sullivan also highlights the psychological significance of McCartney’s obsessive work ethic, compulsive need to compose/make music, and decades-long self-medicating use of marijuana (109) as evidence of the musician’s non-normative psychological state.

Ultimately, Sullivan’s work and application of Lacanian theory to Lennon and McCartney underscores how badly Beatles historiography still needs a trained psychologist or psychiatrist to explore the individuals, partnerships, and relationships within the band. The book does a better job of provoking questions than answering them, and, because of its reliance on heavily one-sided views and selective evidence in his portrayals of both Lennon and McCartney, fails to provide a more comprehensive and accurate psychological picture.


Footnotes:
(1) Mary McCartney lost her mother to childbirth at the age of 10 and lived in poverty with her father and siblings after moving back to Ireland, came back to Liverpool and, at 13, left her home and father due to what her son Michael described in The Macs as an abusive stepmother. She then became a widely-respected nurse both prior to and after her marriage to Jim McCartney.
(2) My apologies for not providing a page number for the quote: my copy of The Macs is in my office at work, I’m off for the summer, and I simply didn’t feel like going in just to provide a citation for one sentence. I’m nine months pregnant and its 100 degrees outside. Typing is most strenuous physical activity I feel up to at the moment, let along trudging across campus to get to my office.
(3) To provide historiographical context, Coleman’s Yesterday and Today was published in 1996, and McCartney’s Howard Stern interview did not occur until the 2000’s. Therefore, the major sources available to Sullivan on the subject in 1995 would have been The Macs and The Authorized Biography.


Thoughts and Comments are Welcome!

57 thoughts on ““Some Other Kind of Mind:” Book Review, The Beatles with Lacan, by Henry Sullivan, Part II.

  1. Erin says:

    The element of Sullivan’s interpretation that probably seemed the most unsupported to me was his analysis of Jim and Paul’s relationship being pervasively laced with conflict. It’s an interpretation that Sullivan alone seems to argue: it’s unsupported by the Authorized Biography, by virtually every biography of Paul, and by many of Paul’s public and statements. (It’s also unsupported in Paul’s music, if “Put it There” is any indication.)

    It’s also out of sync with seemingly every group biography. One of the elements that struck me when reading “Tune In” was an element of respect Lewisohn seemingly had for Jim McCartney: a widower dealing with a devastating loss, raising two teenaged sons (It would not have been uncommon in that time period for Jim to farm his children out to female relatives following the death of their mother), but doing it, while working a demanding job, to the best of his ability. While every parental/child relationship has conflict, I think Sullivan goes too far in minimizing Jim’s influence on Paul. I think he does a good job of making the case that Paul learned at least some of his emotional responses from his mother, but neglects how Paul’s formative musical influence (before John, even) was Jim.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hologram Sam says:

      Paul’s formative musical influence (before John, even) was Jim.

      I agree. I recall an interview with Paul where he recalled his father sitting him down and explaining harmony to him; passing down his love of music to his son.

      Did anyone else see the Carpool Karaoke with Paul? They visit his childhood home and Paul gives a tour (“This is where my dad did the laundry, this is where John and I wrote songs”). I don’t remember exactly, but I think he said this was the first time he’d ever visited the house since leaving in his early twenties?

      James Corden was emotionally overcome by Let It Be (his late grandfather played it for him) while Paul told the old story about the title coming to him in a dream about his late mother.

      I guess because these stories are so old for Paul he can stay calm while telling them. I imagine he got all the crying out of the way years ago.

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      • Karen Hooper says:

        I saw the Carpool Karaoke with Paul. It was fun to see him reminisce about playing in the bathroom because the acoustics were so great–while sitting on the can, singing. 🙂

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      • Erin says:

        (Sorry for the late reply, Sam and everyone else: my 9-almost-10 year old has been quite sick for days, and is only now starting to feel better. This is the first chance I’ve had to respond).

        “I recall an interview with Paul where he recalled his father sitting him down and explaining harmony to him; passing down his love of music to his son.”

        His father’s musical influence is something Paul has consistently discussed over the decades, in “Anthology,” in “Many Years From Now,” and up to the present. There’s even an amusing questionnaire from (1963? 1964?) where one of the questions for each of the Beatles was something to that effect — “Who was your greatest musical influence/hero/etc.” John scribbled in his own name on Paul’s sheet, and Paul crossed out John’s name and replaced it with “My dad.”

        I also really enjoyed the Carpool Karaoke. There was even a somewhat new-ish story in the segment, IIRC: The one about Paul thinking he had successfully snuck out past the Liverpool fans, while wearing a disguise, only to have them call him on it instantly.

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    • linda a says:

      I agree completely Erin. First I want to say that this was so incredibly interesting to read. Although like you, I cannot agree with his analysis of the so called major conflict between Paul and Jim, I will say it was fascinating to read. Nothing to back it up though. I also find it odd that something he could back up with sources, Jim’s corporal punishment of his sons, is never mentioned. But I’m glad he didn’t just write McCartney off as normal because that notion is just absurd to me.

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      • Karen Hooper says:

        Ditto re the silence on corporal punishment. It’s such a glaring omission that it’s hard to fathom why–although I shudder to think of what kind of Lacanian twist it would have, a la Sullivan.

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      • Erin says:

        Linda, thanks for commenting. I’m glad you thought the review was interesting.

        Most of the information on Jim’s corporal punishment which would have been available to Sullivan would have been The Macs and The Authorized Biography. The material in the Macs, as Rose mentioned downthread, portrays it as fairly typical corporal punishment for that time and place. The same goes for the Authorized Bio; both of those works balance out any discussion of spanking etc. by words of praise for Jim from both of his sons. The first public instance where Paul evidently doesn’t dismiss its significance and seemingly offers resentment regarding it would have been the Howard Stern interview. Of course, Sullivan easily cherry–picked evidence to reinforce other aspects of his psychological analysis of Paul, so I’m not sure why he neglected the subject of corporal punishment, something which he actually did have evidence for — unlike Mary’s supposed subconscious resentment of Jim, for example.

        “But I’m glad he didn’t just write McCartney off as normal because that notion is just absurd to me.”

        I think the subject of McCartney’s “normality” is complicated because it’s become so infused with other issues: one of which is people inevitably comparing him with the obviously mercurial John, and comparing him with other rock and roll peers, rather than evaluating Paul himself. Yes, in comparison to many (maybe even most) rock and roll icons of his generation — Brian Jones, Keith Richards, Brian Wilson, etc. — Paul would appear to be more normal than most of his peers. But — one thing Sullivan is correct on — Paul has also deliberately projected an image of normality for fifty-odd years. And, for another, basing your definition of “normal” people off of the people in rock and roll isn’t exactly a large or accurate sample: it’s like the old saying: “In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.”

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  2. Hologram Sam says:

    Off topic, but I remember seeing these young gentlemen a few months ago, busking.

    They attracted enough attention to be invited on TV. This clip really brought home for me how wide and deep Paul & John’s influence has spread.

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    • Karen Hooper says:

      Wow–do they ever sound like Lennon/McCartney. It truly is amazing that the Beatles are still having an impact on young people like these guys, at 23 years old.

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  3. Rose Decatur says:

    Wonderful summation of the book, Erin. I had it long ago (in the 1990s) and don’t remember a lot, so it was refreshing to read your analysis. You definitely hit on my main takeaway at the time, which is that Sullivan relies too heavily on a Freudian (or I guess Lacanian) psychological view of everything. If only he’d written his book after Many Years From Now, which contains the nugget from Paul that sighting his mum in her underclothes was his first glimpse of an undressed woman and thus gave him an erection. He would’ve had a field day!

    Regarding Jim McCartney’s corporal punishment, I never gave it too much considering Paul and Mike’s mentions of it made it sounds like par for the course for the era. Calling it a “walloping” or “a good hiding” I figured was just typical exaggeration of a spanking in circumstances that sounded like they warranted it (like the boys almost drowning when playing in a quarry they’d been expressively forbidden from). I never considered it in a different way until Paul’s Howard Stern interview where he described being 16 or 17 and getting hit across the face and then challenging his dad, “Do it again.” Being hit in the face is not standard corporal punishment (whatever my personal feelings about spanking or switches, I know that in many cultures/eras it was common) nor is it standard to do it to a child so old and close to adulthood. If I remember right, even the way Paul said it was startling, something like, “He used to hit me” although he tried to walk it back almost immediately.

    As wrongheaded as I think a lot of Sullivan’s interpretation can be, it’s almost refreshing to simply have ANY Beatles author want to analyze Paul on his own terms at all, and to take a new approach generally.

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    • Linda says:

      Also regarding the corporal punishment and the mention of it on Howard Stern, I recall a very rare tape recording made by a fan who was visiting Paul in 1967. I believe it was called, The Little Girl Tape. She recorded her visit with him on a tape recorder and it was very interesting and to me, revealing. At one point I think, she is telling Paul how she had to lie to her mother about the real reason she wanted to go to England ( to meet the Beatles). She had instead told her she wanted to study at Oxford for their summer semester. Paul then launches into a mini rant about how parents need to back off and have more respect for their kids and not hit them. Then after the comment about hitting kids he pointedly ends the rant with, “Daddy” as if the rant had been directed at his father. The girl had not said anything about her mother hitting her so it was interesting that Paul referred to corporal punishment and said, “Daddy”. I find these rare recordings and arcane recollections to sometimes be more interesting than a mainstream biography.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Karen Hooper says:

        Linda, Rose, that’s so interesting about Paul bringing up the corporal punishment so spontaneously (and tangentially, it would seem.)

        Paul’s childhood, while loving and stable, clearly had its stressors beyond the death of his mother. I think talking about his dad’s use of corporal punishment is Paul’s way of letting the world know this.

        As an interesting aside: Mimi never raised a hand to John. Her weapon of choice, according to Hunter Davies, was to deny John affection and attention until he begged for it. “Don’t `nore me, Mimi,” the child was quoted as saying.

        Two sides of the same inappropriate coin.

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        • Linda says:

          “As an interesting aside: Mimi never raised a hand to John. Her weapon of choice, according to Hunter Davis, was to deny John affection and attention until he begged for it. “Don’t `nore me, Mimi,” the child was quoted as saying.”

          I think this is probably worse than corporal punishment. A lot of corporal punishment is the result of otherwise loving, attentive parents who have just reached a boiling point that day and against their better judgment they snap. But this….there is just something so calculated and malicious about willfully ignoring a child in your care and giving him the silent treatment. Mimi seemed emotionally disturbed. Poor John. He didn’t seem to have adults in his life who were capable of nurturing him and demonstrating appropriate behavior, at least not on a consistent basis.

          As for Paul I think a lot of Jim’s corporal punishment happened because he snapped. Paul and Mike seemed to be high spirited, willful boys who ignored the rules that their parents had set for their safety and well being. I highly doubt that Jim ever hit them because they were in the way and cramped his style etc. Also it was acceptable to spank kids in those days. I just think that as Paul grew up he rejected that aspect of his father’s parenting style and justifiably, decided that it was wrong. He probably regretted that his father didn’t have more patience and self control. And he is absolutely right of course.

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          • Karen Hooper says:

            I think this is probably worse than corporal punishment. A lot of corporal punishment is the result of otherwise loving, attentive parents who have just reached a boiling point that day and against their better judgment they snap. But this….there is just something so calculated and malicious about willfully ignoring a child in your care and giving him the silent treatment.

            Exactly. In my (clinical) experience, loving, devoted parents who otherwise use corporal punishment usually do so out of fear, anger or a combination of both. Jim McCartney whaling on the boys after that incident in the quarry is typical. He was probably terrified that his boys could have drowned, and, like many parents of his era, his terror turned to anger and, ultimately, a misguided form of discipline.

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            • Linda says:

              “Exactly. In my (clinical) experience, loving, devoted parents who otherwise use corporal punishment usually do so out of fear, anger or a combination of both. Jim McCartney whaling on the boys after that incident in the quarry is typical. He was probably terrified that his boys could have drowned, and, like many parents of his era, his terror turned to anger and, ultimately, a misguided form of discipline.”

              This can even be applied to Jim’s behavior toward teenaged Paul when he slapped him across the face. God only knows what Paul did, but whatever it was, it provoked enough fear and anger in Jim to cause him to lose his self control and act on emotional impulse.

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    • Erin says:

      “As wrongheaded as I think a lot of Sullivan’s interpretation can be, it’s almost refreshing to simply have ANY Beatles author want to analyze Paul on his own terms at all, and to take a new approach generally.”

      I’m glad you liked the review, Rose. You were right: “The Beatles with Lacan” is now tied with Norman Smith’s memoir as the weirdest books I’ve read in Beatles historiography. And I did appreciate Sullivan’s (very insightful and correct, IMO) point (which you referenced in your comment) about the numerous authors in Beatles historiography who willingly and eagerly engage in contextualizing/psychoanalyzing John to explain his statements/decisions/motivations, but utterly fail to do so with any of the other Beatles, including Paul. Instead, they recount Paul (or George, or Ringo’s) actions with no analysis or attempt to find deeper causes. Karen discussed that before: the more extreme someone’s behavior is, the more people will find reasons to explain/discuss it. I think we’re starting to see a shift on that in Beatles historiography, but it has been decades in coming.

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  4. Karen Hooper says:

    “The primary enigma about Paul is his self-advertised ‘normalcy,’ but normal people do not conquer the pop world twice over.”

    “Normal” people may not conquer the pop world twice over, but gifted people certainly do. Sullivan makes a common layperson’s mistake: conflating or confusing aberration with exceptionality.

    For example: he bases his conclusions on McCartney’s relationships with/views of women (with the exception of a few brief sentences from McCartney’s Playgirl Interview) almost exclusively on the account of Francie Schwartz. (98).

    [headsdesk]. Confirmation bias, in all its glory. The more I read of Sullivan’s treatment of McCartney, the clearer it seems that he cherry-picked information to support this thesis.

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    • Erin says:

      “Sullivan makes a common layperson’s mistake: conflating or confusing aberration with exceptionality.”

      The cliché certainly seems to be that only people who are incredibly psychologically driven (often through loss or trauma) are capable of making it as far as John and Paul did. John, of course, contributed to this way of thinking — “genius is pain, that’s all it is,” etc. What’s your stance on that, Karen? Sullivan adheres to that line of thinking, obviously — even if he severely downplays the impact of Mary’s sudden death — but I was curious about your thoughts.

      “The more I read of Sullivan’s treatment of McCartney, the clearer it seems that he cherry-picked information to support this thesis.”

      Yes, although he was equal opportunity offender: he did the same with John as well. There was a line in the review that I took out, because it felt like I was beating a dead horse, but it basically went something like: “Sullivan’s selective use of evidence to support his thesis is the equivalent of analyzing the artistic merit of Lennon’s entire solo career based only on the critically maligned “Some Time In New York City.”

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      • Karen Hooper says:

        The cliché certainly seems to be that only people who are incredibly psychologically driven (often through loss or trauma) are capable of making it as far as John and Paul did. John, of course, contributed to this way of thinking — “genius is pain, that’s all it is,” etc. What’s your stance on that, Karen?

        Another way of looking at it: Maya Angelou was a gifted poet, author, and activist who experienced a tremendously traumatic childhood–but she was also stable, high functioning, and, well, normal. If Sullivan had said that creative people often have had serious life challenges which find expression in their creativity, I’d agree with that; but to claim that Paul must be “abnormal” to have been that successful is plain wrong. It’s the absolute assertion of abnormality I have trouble with.

        Liked by 1 person

  5. Alex says:

    I wonder whether the McCartneys had some money problems and whether that caused some stress in the household which was taken out on the children?

    I grew up in Liverpool and my grandparents actually lived in a house that was almost identical to Paul’s house in Forthlin Road. My grandmother had two cleaning jobs and my grandfather worked at the Liverpool docks. Nearly everyone who lived in the same street had similar, manual jobs. I can’t remember anyone living there who worked as a nurse or put on a suit to go to work, for example.

    Paul’s parents didn’t have manual jobs and the house came with his mother’s job so they didn’t even have to pay rent. They should have been relatively well off and definitely a rung or two above working class. A nurse and a salesman would have been in the same social class as say a teacher, and they would certainly have been better off than a cleaner and a docker, and yet my family weren’t that poor. Well, I don’t remember ever going without or feeling particularly poor.

    It’s something that strikes me as odd, and it makes me suspect that the McCartneys may have had some money worries or debts.

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    • Hologram Sam says:

      It’s something that strikes me as odd, and it makes me suspect that the McCartneys may have had some money worries or debts.

      Is it possible the McCartneys were doing fine financially, and that Paul exaggerated how modest his circumstances were (like Lennon did in interviews)?

      The same thing goes on nowadays in the U.S.

      Celebrities and politicians try to portray themselves as working class when in reality their parents enjoyed wealth. Because people are too embarrassed to tell interviewers “We were quite comfortable, actually.”

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      • Karen Hooper says:

        I dunno, Sam; for a 14-year-old Paul to utter “what will we do without her money” moments after he finds out about his mother’s death tells me there probably were money issues, in some form or another–or at least the kids grew up believing there were.

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        • Erin says:

          It occurs to me, Karen, that if we believe Sullivan’s argument regarding Jim’s weakness for betting and losing on horses, than Paul’s “What will we do without her money” becomes more weighted. With Mary as the primary breadwinner, we can assume that Jim was primarily gambling with the income Mary brought in. Now that that income is gone, Paul could very well be thinking 1. Dad’s going to keep gambling (and losing) 2. Dad’s going to be gambling with only his own income, which is barely enough anyway, now that we’ve lost Mom’s income. 3. Mom’s not going to be around anymore to make Dad cut back on the gambling, and we really might lose too much money to recover. That would be a pretty scary prospect for a fourteen year old who has already just lost a pillar of stability in his mother.

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          • Karen Hooper says:

            Has Paul or Mike ever talked about their Dad having a gambling problem? Do you think they would, if he did?

            On one hand, I can see both sons devoted to preserving Jim’s memory and keeping it a secret, but on the other hand–given the ready disclosures about Jim’s use of corporal punishment–I can also see them sharing it.

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            • Erin says:

              I think that Mike mentions in “The Macs” that Jim liked a flutter on the horses, but he doesn’t categorize it as a gambling problem. In fact, Mike emphasizes all the ways that Jim didn’t go off of the rails following Mary’s death, basically declaring “Dad didn’t abandon us, didn’t beat us, didn’t drink himself to death, but just mourned while carrying on as best he could.” However, of course, my copy is at the office, and I can’t double check.

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              • Karen Hooper says:

                With all this theorizing about Jim’s gambling and the McCartney family’s relative poverty, it occurs to me that we might be discussing a problem which didn’t exist.

                After Mary died, the family didn’t go off the rails financially and life ticked on as it always did–even without Mary’s income. If the Macs were broke because of Jim’s gambling before Mary died, they would have been outright destitute after.

                This tells me that there wasn’t a gambling problem or any other type of financial chicanery on Jim’s part (unless, of course, Mary’s death compelled him to clean up his act.)

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                • Erin says:

                  “With all this theorizing about Jim’s gambling and the McCartney family’s relative poverty, it occurs to me that we might be discussing a problem which didn’t exist.”

                  That’s a good point, Karen. That’s why I hoped I stressed in my earlier posts that we don’t have a source for Sullivan’s claims regarding Jim McCartney’s debts, and that lack of a source is pretty crucial. Who’s telling Sullivan this? From my understanding, he didn’t actually interview anyone for his book, but utilized already available primary and secondary sources. And some of the ones he chooses to accept unquestioningly, as I’ve mentioned, have their own severe issues (Goldman, Flippo) with documentation/methodology, as well as partisan interpretations.

                  Like

            • Linda says:

              “Has Paul or Mike ever talked about their Dad having a gambling problem? Do you think they would, if he did?”

              If I could just jump in I want to say this Lacan book is not the first time I’ve heard about Jim’s gambling. I can’t site the original source with complete certainty but my guess would probably be The Macs or one of Mike’s books. It might have also been in Spitz’s book along with Spitz’s assertion that there was also a little drinking problem as well. Paul has never mentioned it though, as far as I know and even Mike’s mention of it was a bit flippant if I’m remembering correctly.

              “On one hand, I can see both sons devoted to preserving Jim’s memory and keeping it a secret, but on the other hand–given the ready disclosures about Jim’s use of corporal punishment–I can also see them sharing it.”

              Perhaps it was a far more serious issue in Paul’s mind than the corporal punishment. When all is said and done, Paul probably realizes that the corporal punishment occurred because an otherwise loving father was emotionally, pushed to the brink, so he feels it’s a safer subject to bring up? On the other hand if the severity of the gambling is true, that is probably a more taboo subject.

              Like

      • Alex says:

        LOL, Sam. Celebrities definitely do this – keeping it real for their fans or pretending to. I read an article about one of the Spice Girls, who’d been selling it hard to the press that she’d grown up in a slum. Unluckily for her, someone decided to get a comment from her mother, who said she was a fantasist and that she’d actually grown up in a four bedroom detached on the edge of a leafy village. LOL – they all do it.

        But in Paul’s case, I think Karen is right. His first thought about his mother’s death was ‘how will we survive without her money?’ I understand that he was shocked, but even so that’s not normal. It’s not the sort of thing a child would say unless they had some deep-rooted trauma about money, or lack of it.

        Like

        • Erin says:

          Sorry for the late reply, Alex. As I mentioned to Sam upthread, I’ve been busy taking care of a sick nine-year old. She even had to miss her own birthday party, poor girl.

          Sullivan’s theory regarding Paul’s obsession with money — both as a child and as adult — is that Paul was, of course, determined to outdo his father, and that the McCartney household was financially unstable because of Jim McCartney’s habit of gambling on horses. (That’s why Sullivan attaches so much negative significance to Paul’s gift of Drake’s Drum to Jim).

          Sullivan includes a fascinating piece of information arguing that, at one point, Jim’s gambling got so bad that his employer at the Liverpool Cotton Exchange had to cover his debts and that, in order to pay his employer back, Jim had to walk to work for months, rather than pay bus fare. The author argues that this was particularly traumatizing for Mary, whose own father had lost considerable money in gambling. The problem is that Sullivan doesn’t provide a source for this specific story, and I’ve never seen it anywhere else. If it is true, it would help explain some of the possible financial instability in the McCartney household.

          Like

          • Alex says:

            Yes, that would make sense, Erin, as ‘having a flutter’ on the horses is – or was – an ingrained part of Northern culture, in the same way as betting on the football pools each week and hard drinking.

            Looking back, I can’t quite grasp where the money came from, as everyone seemed to live like this but was in theory, ‘poor’. I suppose the cost of living was just lower.

            If the situation in the McCartney household was as Sullivan described, it would have caused the kind of shame and embarrassment that you would literally die to keep secret. Asking your employer for help – ie, ‘going cap in hand’ – would be have to be your very last resort after trying and failing to rob a bank perhaps. Because how would you live down the shame? If things got to the point where Jim (proud as he was) was willing to do this, they must have been pretty desperate, and the tension in the household must have been at boiling point. And in a small house, that sort of tension could not be hidden from the kids. Which would certainly explain Paul’s anxiety.

            I can well imagine this to be true.

            Like

    • Linda says:

      I don’t want to take over the thread but your comment is really interesting, Alex. It puts so much into perspective. I’ve often wondered myself, about the McCartneys financial situation, because something wasn’t adding up. I wonder if Jim’s love for horse betting may have gotten a little out of hand and maybe there wasn’t as much money as there should have been. If that’s the case then it’s possible that a wife would have some resentment about that. Especially that Mary’s father was a gambler and put the family into debt as a result. I wish we knew as much about the McCartneys as we do about the Stanley’s.

      Like

    • Brit says:

      “I wonder whether the McCartneys had some money problems and whether that caused some stress in the household which was taken out on the children?”

      That’s very interesting! Paul (and the McCartneys in general) seem pretty good at keeping their family business private, but it’s easy to imagine a number of causes. Jim’s gambling? Maybe a drinking problem? Unnamed relatives that suck up resources? (Extended family can be a huge drain)

      It’s also possible that the children perceived money as tighter than it actually was, especially if it was a source of conflict between Mary and Jim. I think we can conclude from Paul’s adult relationship with money that it was a major source of stress and anxiety in his childhood.

      Like

      • Alex says:

        The more I think about it, the more likely Sullivan’s explanation seems.

        Living in a rent-free or subsidised council house with both parents in good, relatively high earning and professional jobs, the McCartneys should have been reasonably well off. We know that they had family holidays to Butlins, etc, and that the kids didn’t go without on birthdays and at Christmas. We also know that they were one of the first families on their street to get a television because the neighbours all came round to watch the Coronation. So for the most part, they lived how you would expect them to – they obviously weren’t rich, but they had a healthy enough disposable income.

        However, something obviously happened to traumatise Paul for life about money, and it’s more likely that he was traumatised by an event that caused stress in the household rather than simply having no money. It’s no fun having no money, but it’s something you get used to, and unless you’re really poor, half starved and living in a slum (which the McCartneys definitely weren’t), it’s not that big a deal to cause trauma.

        On the other hand, I cannot begin to describe how much shame an event such as having to ask his employer to bail him out would have caused a proud, working class Northern man in the 1950’s. Or ever come to that. (My dad would have died first.) That is something that, if true, would have hung over Paul’s childhood, causing untold stress and damage. Because while the McCartneys were by all accounts lovely people, they were Northern, working class and of Irish descent. I would bet my last penny that this was not something Mary McCartney kept quiet about at home. And if she did keep quiet, she would almost certainly have shown her displeasure in another way.

        The Drake’s Drum theory also sounds quite plausible to me. I mean, if Sullivan is right about the gambling debt and you consider that Paul’s mother died, he must have resented his father for causing her stress. Of course, a normal person wouldn’t think about giving someone a race horse as a token of their deep-rooted resentment and anger, but Paul isn’t a normal person – he’s a brilliant person, who isn’t like anyone else. He also has form for these type of actions, for example, putting Linda in Wings to stick two fingers up at John (‘we wanted to be together’ – yeah, right) or the whole of the Ram album.

        I’ve gone on a bit and slightly off the point, but basically, yes – Sullivan’s theory makes a great deal of sense to me.

        Like

        • Erin says:

          “On the other hand, I cannot begin to describe how much shame an event such as having to ask his employer to bail him out would have caused a proud, working class Northern man in the 1950’s.”

          Alex, I’m so pleased that you can provide context on issues such as these, and put them in their proper cultural and chronological perspective. That’s really invaluable to have that immediate understanding that later generations and other cultures can sometimes lack.

          “That is something that, if true, would have hung over Paul’s childhood, causing untold stress and damage.”

          You do a good job of emphasizing how impactful the gambling debts, if true, would have been to the McCartney household. I only wish Sullivan had provided a citation for the source on the story. Perhaps I shall have to go back and triple check my notes.

          The issue of the stress and damage caused by the possible gambling issue reminds me also of Spitz’s claim that Mary was actually diagnosed with breast cancer when Paul was six, rather than the typical timeline of a year or so before her death. Mary being diagnosed eight years prior to her death completely transforms our understanding of Paul’s childhood and the household he grew up in: it indicates stress, damage, pervasive secrets (ones kept for perhaps the best of intentions, but still causing damage) and an avoidance of the discussion of crucial and highly emotional issues. Either issue — the gambling or Mary’s early diagnosis — paints a far less rose-colored version of Paul’s childhood than we are typically provided.

          Like

          • Rose Decatur says:

            “The issue of the stress and damage caused by the possible gambling issue reminds me also of Spitz’s claim that Mary was actually diagnosed with breast cancer when Paul was six, rather than the typical timeline of a year or so before her death. Mary being diagnosed eight years prior to her death completely transforms our understanding of Paul’s childhood and the household he grew up in: it indicates stress, damage, pervasive secrets (ones kept for perhaps the best of intentions, but still causing damage) and an avoidance of the discussion of crucial and highly emotional issues. Either issue — the gambling or Mary’s early diagnosis — paints a far less rose-colored version of Paul’s childhood than we are typically provided.”

            I really, really wish we could ever get a definitive answer on this. Personally I think Spitz is persuasive as he interviewed a primary source (Mary’s sister-in-law Dill Mohin) who seems reliable. I can’t see any reason why Dill would make up such a thing, plus she was a female adult relative/friend/peer of Mary’s who claimed to have intimate knowledge of the situation as she stated she accompanied Mary to medical appointments as Jim was working.

            There’s also Lewisohn’s claim in Tune In (if I’m remembering correctly) that Mary’s cancer had spread to her brain which, if true, would be a bombshell IMO. But Lewisohn mentions it only in passing and without a source, I think.

            Paul made in interesting comment in Many Years From Now about how his mother was the center of the family and “in the end, that’s probably why she died of a stress related illness.” Of course this was before Linda was diagnosed and Paul learned more than he ever wanted to about breast cancer, but it’s not really a “stress related” disease. But it showed that at least in Paul’s mind his mother was burdened in some way.

            As for Jim’s corporal punishment, I’m not as keen to excuse it as simply normal and him getting upset. It does seem to have bothered Paul significantly enough to mention, decades later. I do not get the sense that Paul thought nothing of it – rather his mention on Stern seemed tinged with guilt for letting it slip at all. He clearly adored and loved his father very much and I think both he and Mike tend to idolize and idealize Jim. I don’t think either of them would ever publicly share something that “besmirches” Jim’s name and I think Paul seemed immediately guilty for sharing that his father hit him. But I still don’t think the anecdote he shared was normal corporal punishment nor did it sound like a one time thing. I don’t doubt that Jim love his children either, but he was still a human being with faults and complexities. One thing I agree with Sullivan on is that Paul’s resentment of Jim may have come out more passive aggressive than direct because of both that idolization and then add physical abuse to that.

            Like

            • Linda says:

              “cancer, but it’s not really a “stress related” disease.”

              I’m no expert by any means, but there does seem to be a school of thought that links stress and depression to diseases like cancer. I was diagnosed with a chronic form of cancer and I remember my doctor has from time to time emphasized the mind body connection and exhorted me to try and eliminate stress in my life. From what I’ve read, stress causes the body to release cortisol which eventually damages the immune system and leaves you vulnerable to disease. Who knows though.

              “As for Jim’s corporal punishment, I’m not as keen to excuse it as simply normal and him getting upset.”

              Oh I agree. There’s no excuse for it but what some of us are saying is at least Jim loved his children and the abuse was the kind born out of anger and fear, rather than premeditated, malicious intent. But I agree, regardless of the reason it’s still abuse and it’s inexcusable.

              Like

        • Karen Hooper says:

          Living in a rent-free or subsidised council house with both parents in good, relatively high earning and professional jobs

          But Jim’s job was not high paying; most biographies emphasize that. What constitutes high-paying (or low-paying) in 1950’s Liverpool, I must confess, I do not know. 🙂

          Like

          • Alex says:

            I don’t think Jim’s job would have been high paying enough to make the McCartneys wealthy, but they should have been fairly comfortable for a working class family. Well, strictly speaking, they weren’t really a working class family – Jim and Mary’s professions would have pushed them up into the lower middle class bracket – but they were certainly living a working class lifestyle.

            I suppose some of Jim’s salary could have been commission based, so that they didn’t know how much money would be coming in each month. However, if he really did ask his employer for a loan, he must have been good enough at his job that he felt able to do so.

            To put it into context, a salesman in 1950’s Liverpool would have earned more than a bus driver. The Harrisons lived in similar circumstances to the McCartneys, but George clearly didn’t have the anxieties about money that Paul did. I mean, he obviously enjoyed being wealthy, but I think he had a very different attitude to money.

            My family was similar to the Harrisons – working class, with not an awful lot of money to go around, but enough that you never felt like you were going without. There was a lot of poverty in Liverpool as well, of course, but most working class families didn’t live in poverty.

            Like

    • Karen Hooper says:

      That’s really interesting, Alex. It’s great to hear from someone over the pond, as it were, who knows intimately the socio-economic settings in which the Beatles grew up.

      Mary McCartney was a midwife so perhaps she wasn’t on the same social rung/pay scale as a registered nurse. According to Bob Spitz, the house of Forthlin Road wasn’t rent-free as were their other domiciles, but was cost-reduced due to Mary’s job. You raise an interesting question, thought, about the family debt. I wonder if other readers have comments or information about this.

      Like

      • Linda says:

        Just my two cents but I’ve read a lot about English nurse midwives. In England a midwife is a registered nurse. She is a registered nurse who has received extra training in midwifery. I recall that before Mary became a midwife she was a hospital nurse and she eventually worked her way to head nurse. She also quit midwifery after a while and became a house visitor or district house visitor which means she took care of the general medical issues of people living in the area. You have to be a registered nurse for that.

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  6. Linda says:

    Another thought because this is one of my favorite topics lol:
    Regarding Sullivan’s assertion with nothing to back it up, that Mary McCartney resented her husband, I have often wondered if Mary ever resented Jim’s seeming encouragement of their sons rejection of religion. We know that Mary was a devout Catholic so I find it strange that given this fact, both boys seemed to have no religious affiliation. I’m assuming this is because Jim was agnostic but that’s what’s so strange about it. I thought that in those days it was the woman who had responsibility for raising the children in her religion. In this case though, it seems Jim hijacked that area. This is something else that I’m surprised Sullivan didn’t address as perhaps a resentment on Mary’s part.

    Like

    • Erin says:

      Those are great points, Linda, both regarding any possible conflict regarding Mary’s Catholicism vs. Jim’s agnosticism and how it may have inspired resentment in Mary to see both of her sons follow Jim’s agnostic path.

      “I have often wondered if Mary ever resented Jim’s seeming encouragement of their sons rejection of religion.”

      I have wondered about that as well. There’s some personal experience seeping in from my perspective: my parents follow the same pattern: devout Catholic mother, non-practicing, semi-agnostic Protestant father. I don’t want to project my parents experience or mine onto Mary and Jim, but just the reality of Mary marrying outside the faith in and of itself may have been considered risky to her extended Catholic family. (Although it was wartime, and numerous standards were relaxed).

      I can’t recall whether Paul and Mike were baptized C of E or Catholic. If it was Catholic, than the issue is an even more important one for Mary, because it is a parent’s spiritual obligation after baptism to raise their child in the same faith. If you want a perhaps oversimplified version, the parent’s own salvation can depend, in part, on how thorough of a job they do in instilling the Catholic faith in their baptized children: introducing them to the prayers/sacraments/catechism, etc.

      Mary reportedly wanted to send Paul to a Catholic school, but accepted Jim’s reasoning that the Catholic schools weren’t difficult/educational enough for someone of Paul’s and Mike’s intelligence. (I have no idea how accurate of an assessment that would have been, for Liverpool in the 40s/50s). I’ve never seen or read anything to indicate that Jim interfered with Mary’s efforts to practice her faith — attending mass, receiving the sacraments, etc. — but Jim’s evident apathy towards religion seemingly had a stronger impact on both of their sons than Mary’s devotion. The timing of her death is also crucial: With Paul at 14 and Mike at 12 when Mary died, they would presumably have been experiencing the typical adolescent apathy regarding religion anyway. Combine that with her absence and the newfound lack of a practicing Catholic in the household, and the undoubted spiritual questions that emerged following her sudden, unfortunate death, and it’s no wonder that Jim’s agnosticism dominated both Paul and Mike’s mindset thereafter.

      Like

      • Linda says:

        “There’s some personal experience seeping in from my perspective:”

        Mine as well and like you I’m trying to be mindful of not projecting. In my case my husband is a devout Catholic and I’m a spiritualist who has completely rejected all organized religion and traditional religious teaching. My husband took it upon himself to send our sons for weekly religious instruction but like me they have as adults, also rejected organized religion and teachings. To his credit, after they were confirmed he never pushed religion onto them and essentially allowed them to make up their own minds but clearly he was hoping for a different outcome.

        “can’t recall whether Paul and Mike were baptized C of E or Catholic”

        They were baptized Catholic. I’m 99% sure of this because this is one of the few things every author seems to copy from other sources into their own work, before they hurriedly get back to John and analysing the meaning behind every move John ever made and every breath he took. I believe the original source is the authorized biography. They were even purposely named after saints, in Michael’s case the saint’s name, Peter is actually his first name although he always went by his middle name. Here is where things get mysterious because although they were baptized Catholic there is no evidence that they ever set foot into a Catholic church, or any church ever again. The strongest evidence I have for this is Paul in I believe, Many Years From Now when he talks about a serious illness he contracted at age 12, that required hospitalization. He said, and I paraphrase, “The nurse came over to my bed with a pen and clip board and asked me what religion I was, because nothing had been filled in. I didn’t even know what to tell her. She then asked, C of E? And I said, I don’t know….I guess so.” If he had been baptized Catholic and again I’m pretty positive he was, the correct answer would have been Catholic even though he obviously had no religious instruction or affiliation in either Catholicism or Protestantism since his baptism. However he didn’t tell the nurse that. He basically said, I don’t know. He seemed to be completely unaware that he was a baptised Catholic or that he was any religion at all. This tells me that after the boys were baptised, they were given absolutely no religious affiliation or instruction whatsoever. Apparently they weren’t even told that they had been baptised Catholic, even though their mother was a practicing Catholic who even kept religious statues in the house, lit candles and prayed to those statues and probably prayed the rosary as well. I’ve always wondered why. Did Jim expressly forbid his wife to raise their children as Catholics even though Catholicism was obviously very important to her? If that’s the case then some things about Jim and their marriage aren’t adding up for me. Along with what Alex has said regarding the mysterious money situation and Sullivan’s assertions regarding gambling debts, I’ve wondered if there are a lot of things about Jim and the marriage in general that we don’t know. He’s always been portrayed as such a great guy and a great father and an easy going, loving husband but for me some things just aren’t adding up. Maybe Sullivan’s assertions have to be taken with a grain of salt because they are just that: mere opinion with no sources to back it up. But I can almost see why Sullivan and others make these assertions. I wish the McCartneys had been a little less flippant and a bit more forthcoming over the years, the way the Lennons and Stanleys have been. Of course in the end it’s nobody’s business. Jim did not choose to be a public figure by default. That situation was chosen for him. Still though, he was a public figure and his son’s fame has thrust the family into the spotlight. Beatle fans want the holes to be filled in.

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        • Alex says:

          There’s quite a lot of sectarian division in Liverpool. It’s not as bad as Belfast or Glasgow, but it exists and it would have been worse then.

          Perhaps the McCartneys didn’t want to cause any sort of family rift by bringing the boys up as Catholic (it’s quite likely that Jim’s family wouldn’t have approved), but had them baptised anyway.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Linda says:

            “There’s quite a lot of sectarian division in Liverpool. It’s not as bad as Belfast or Glasgow, but it exists and it would have been worse then.

            Perhaps the McCartneys didn’t want to cause any sort of family rift by bringing the boys up as Catholic ”

            Both of these points are excellent. I hadn’t thought of either of these and they both make perfect sense.

            Like

        • Karen Hooper says:

          They were baptized Catholic. I’m 99% sure of this.

          I recall that too, Linda. I think it was Hunter Davies (?) who talked about this. Mary had her sons baptized Catholic. Paul referred to himself as a “flabby Catholic”, presumably meaning that they didn’t go to church etc. What I don’t remember is whether Mary was devout; I recall that she dutifully passed on the tradition but wasn’t a regular church goer (my memory could be all wrong, of course, and I can’t recall where I read that.)

          I was born Catholic to a Catholic family on both sides. Went to Catholic grade school too. Back in the day, that’s what Catholics did–they passed on the tradition, regardless of whether they are themselves strict adherents. For some reason I recall reading about the Macs and thinking that I could relate, on that aspect.

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          • linda a says:

            “Paul referred to himself as a “flabby Catholic”, presumably meaning that they didn’t go to church”

            Hee hee I always thought he meant that as a reference to the brief period when he was supposedly chubby! 😄

            “What I don’t remember is whether Mary was devout;”

            Now that I think about it that’s a good question. I guess I assumed she was because she had the statue in the bedroom and she prayed to the statue. Also before she died the priest said the rosary and wrapped the rosary beads around her wrist. Come to think of it though, when I was growing up my mom did all of those things as well. She had a statue of the blessed mother and she lit candles and prayed to the statue but we didn’t actually start going to church regularly until I was old enough to make my communion and needed to go to weekly catechism classes after mass. So yea maybe Mary didn’t always attend mass although I would still call her at least fairly devout.

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            • Karen Hooper says:

              Hee hee I always thought he meant that as a reference to the brief period when he was supposedly chubby! 😄

              Too funny–maybe you’re right!

              I guess I assumed she was because she had the statue in the bedroom and she prayed to the statue. Also before she died the priest said the rosary and wrapped the rosary beads around her wrist.

              Oh, I didn’t know that. She sounds pretty devout, doesn’t she.

              Like

        • CHRIS says:

          Linda says: some things about Jim and their marriage aren’t adding up for me.

          I completely agree. Here’s Salewicz on Jim and gambling/drinking:

          “Yet the education that Jim McCartney offered his sons was not always conventional; they couldn’t help but notice his inability to pass a slot machine without putting a coin in it, or the way he would give quadruple measures of undiluted alcohol to guests. Later, when the boys were in their teens, he would show them how to get away with drinking underage in pubs, slipping them the cash to buy rounds of drinks.”

          So that’s…interesting. I also recently read the letter Jim sent to Mike when he was in hospital with a broken arm and at one point he encourages Mike with the phrase “keep your pecker up, son” which to me seems an extremely weird thing to say to your 12 year old. Or am I the weird one?? Does that seem normal to everyone but me??? I’m not suggesting anything untoward was happening, just that maybe Jim’s sense of propriety was pretty OFF sometimes, despite his appearance of functionality/stability. Maybe he wrote it drunk? I don’t know. Mike has called his dad a “secret raver.” Which is funny:

          ‘”We were dead straight until our mum died,” Mike explains, “and then we went totally to pieces. Mum was a very heavy influence on our lives, and she was very much one for keeping up a respectable front for the neighbours. If she had lived, there would have been a hell of a lot of pressure at home for Paul and me to have respectable jobs, to go into the professions — to become lawyers, or Dr. McCartney, something like that. Dad, meanwhile, was a secret raver.”‘

          It’s also worth noting that while Mike has always talked freely and with apparent amusement about Jim’s corporal punishment, Paul NEVER did until a 2002-ish Howard Stern interview. And never again since. I don’t think he even mentions so much as getting a spanking even in the exhaustive Many Years From Now. To me, that only Then in the Spitz book, one of the aunties (Dil? Jin?) is quoted as insisting Jim “never laid a hand” on the boys. Obviously that is not true. So what, she felt it was a secret? Or was being overly defensive, because….?

          It’s been rumored for years, and Paul has recently admitted to being a hoarder, which he directly attributes to “having nothing” as a child. Someone upthread mentioned they actually seemed to have nicer things than your average working class family — holidays, a television, etc. But were these financially sound purchases? Or did they occasionally come at the expense of necessities? Was Jim impulsive with money? Did Mary crave “upward mobility” so much, the outward appearance of disposable income? Was the Mary-driven move to Forthlin Road, where they would start owing partial rent, cause problems when she died? This would go a looooooooong way toward explaining Paul’s capital-i Issues with money.

          Here’s him discussing it recently:

          “When I was in Liverpool as a kid, I used to listen to people’s conversations. I remember a couple of women going on about money: ‘Ah, me and my husband, we’re always arguing about money.’ And I remember thinking very consciously, ‘Okay, I’ll solve that; I will try to get money.’ That set me off on the ‘Let’s not have too many problems with money’ trail.”

          I’d bet money (HA!) that this vague anecdote about “a couple of women” is Paul-speak for: “my parents fought about money and it traumatized me for life.”

          Erin says: Mary being diagnosed eight years prior to her death completely transforms our understanding of Paul’s childhood and the household he grew up in: it indicates stress, damage, pervasive secrets (ones kept for perhaps the best of intentions, but still causing damage) and an avoidance of the discussion of crucial and highly emotional issues.

          I am 100% convinced this is the case — about “pervasive secrets” not about the cancer specifically, tho I could easily believe it. Mike and Paul apparently didn’t know she was sick even at the end, weren’t told she was dying before their last visit to the hospital, weren’t told after the fact what she’d died of, weren’t allowed at the funeral, weren’t told where she was buried. Secrets, secrets. Paul’s childhood is full of them.

          Like

          • Jesse says:

            Chris, I assume you are from the US, right? The meaning of the phrase appears to be quite different in the UK:

            pecker
            noun

            British slang spirits (esp in the phrase keep one’s pecker up)

            informal short for woodpecker

            US and Canadian slang a slang word for penis

            I also feel there is not nearly enough evidence to support the idea that Jim was really a serious gambler or drinker. I have seen this theory elsewhere and it makes me very uncomfortable how easily these things get bandied about as facts when they are just conclusions based on some anecdotes and behavioural observations.

            Both Mike and Paul have described how their dad taught them to never buy things via installmets – that is why Paul got the cheapest guitars compared to John and George and why he bought the Hofner bass. So to suggest that Jim overspend on frivolous stuff appears to be an unfounded accusation. And which holidays did the family take? I only know of scout camps for the boys and one stay at Butlin’s after Mary’s death, possibly supported by Mike and Bett Robbins, who worked there as redcoats.

            And the raver thing – you have to remember that Jim used to be a musician himself and married rather late, so yes, he was probably more open to the idea that his son(s) could make a living as a musician or comedian than Mary would have been. Nothing sinister there.

            That money was an issue in the family is not new and certainly nothing special – but there is no evidence that the parents fought over it. If you chose to take the story of those women discussing such problems on the bus as evidence for trouble, you might also consider that in recent interviews promoting McCartney III Paul once again stressed how happy his childhood was until his mother died.

            But I have a hunch that at least Paul sort of knew that his mum was not completely well. After Linda died he told Chrissie Hynde that he consciously avoided telling her “to take 40 winks” whenever she felt poorly from treatment, because that was what his father had told bis mother….

            Like

            • Linda says:

              Jessie thanks for clearing up that “keep your pecker up” comment that Jim made to Mike after he broke his arm. I knew it had to be a form of British slang that I hadn’t heard before and he wasn’t using the word pecker the way North Americans use it. But I was always curious about the reference. I agree that there’s not enough evidence to suggest that drinking and gambling were a problem for Jim. The anecdotes are interesting though. I just want to add though, that the McCartneys didn’t only go on that one vacation to Butlin’s after Mary’s death. There is evidence that they went every year from the time the boys were tiny. There are plenty of pictures of them at what looks like a resort of some kind. They could have been day trips but I do remember McCartney saying that they went to Butlins other years besides the one after Mary died.

              Like

            • Chris says:

              Jesse, THANK YOU for explaining the pecker thing!! That makes so much more sense.

              I’m not making accusations or implying anything “sinister.” Addictions and dysfunctions aren’t sinister, they’re illnesses and sequelae of trauma. I’m asking questions about what very common, very human foibles and complications might have existed in Paul’s childhood to make him the person he is. YMMV, but imo he is much more difficult and insecure and conflicted than the image he projects, and I’m interested in why that might be. Im sure his childhood was happy in many ways, but he’s always going to emphasize the positives and downplay the negatives, so it’s the negatives I’m interested in digging into.

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      • Linda says:

        “Mary reportedly wanted to send Paul to a Catholic school, ”

        Something else I remember reading in, The Gospel According to the Beatles by Steve Turner is, apparently a half assed attempt was eventually made to give the boys some religious instruction. They were enrolled in weekly religion classes at the Liverpool Institute….then they were hastily removed from the class right after Mary’s death. Turner evidently did some sleuthing and he uncovered the roster with their names on it, then another list of names of students who had been removed from the class and their names were on that one too, with the date of their removal coinciding shortly after Mary’s death.

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