The Credibility of Interviews and The Historical Method:
Beatles historiography is saturated in both primary and secondary sources, mass media sources, and interviews. What Beatles historiography significantly lacks are the most valuable and credible of primary sources: private records that were never intended for public consumption. (Marc Bloch, The Historian’s Craft, 31). Beatles history is awash in primary sources, but because of their very public nature, even the primary sources meet few of the established standards that determine the most credible material.
(For those readers hoping to see the video of my Lennon Vs. McCartney History Speaker Series talk, I apologize: while I expected that would be my next post, my University’s Advancement Office has yet to send me the video, rather throwing a wrench in my plans.)
In compensation, I’m offering an excerpt from Chapter One: The Fab Four Narrative, which was cut from the final manuscript. The primary reason for its deletion is simple: it came across, ultimately, as a rather dry academic laundry list lecture on historical methods and source analysis. (So I’m inflicting it on you — nice compensation, right?)
My initial approach for Chapter One was to provide the basic rules of source analysis and historiography, and then, throughout the book, evaluate sources while referring back to the rules as laid out in this excerpt. Ultimately, after 15-20 pages of this approach, I scrapped it, and decided to discuss specific standards and methods as they were applied to certain primary and secondary sources within Beatles Historiography. Many of the standards which I discuss in the excerpt are eventually mentioned in the published version of The Beatles and the Historians, but applied in text to specific sources, individually. Simply put; rather than bombarding the reader with an excessive amount of rules and standards at the book’s beginning, I decided to drop them like breadcrumbs along the historiographical trail, one piece at a time.
(Below is the rest of the excerpt: Buyer Beware; this can be regarded as academia at its most impenetrable and insufferable 🙂 ).
There has been a tendency on the part of some Beatles writers to regard all primary sources and interviews as equally credible, a significant flaw that ignores some of the essential questions that are used to evaluate primary source material: First, how close in proximity was the source to the event? Second, what was the purpose behind the production of the source? Was it more to provide a record of an event, or to sell something? Third, was the source originally intended in a confidential, private nature, which grants it more credibility? Fourth, what about the level of expertise of the author concerning the source? Were they capable of understanding the situation, or did they lack important knowledge or training that would have affected their understanding of the event? (James Starrt, Historical Methods in Mass Communication, 179) Was the interview contemporaneous or retrospective? These questions, as well as the issue of authorial agenda, must be used to ensure that any version of a story is more history than myth. Any historian who attempts to write an accurate account of the band or the individuals in it must do so while acknowledging the fact that, from 1962 on, the interest of the Beatles was not to record events as they occurred, or depict facts in interviews in the most accurate terms. Instead, the Beatles agenda was to ‘sell’ something: their personalities, their singles, their albums, their movies and their mythology.
This element of agenda influences the credibility of every interview the Beatles ever gave, from the group’s functioning years to its breakup and beyond. That is not to say that it negates all the public statements made by the group or the individual Beatles. However, according to standard historical methods, the varying agendas behind each particular interview need to be acknowledged when analyzing the validity of the testimony they provide. The overreliance on interviews as the most commonly used source in Beatles historiography has resulted in a more journalistic than historical methodology. Relying too heavily on these interviews, or eyewitness testimony, has resulted in two major weaknesses in Beatles historical writing.
First, by concentrating on interviews, some writers who have told the Beatles story have neglected other forms of evidence, such as personal letters, legal or business documents, or other primary sources that provide documentation as well as testimony. In many cases, these neglected sources provide a more impartial analysis than personal testimony.
Second, very few Beatles’ writers have applied legitimate source analysis to the interviews they rely on as evidence. Interviews, more than any other type of source, have served as the primary structures underpinning the four major narratives in Beatles historiography. Few of these interviews, however, have been analyzed for their credibility as legitimate or accurate accounts of events. Because so much of Beatles history is shaped by interviews, such critical analysis is essential for any accurate understanding of the group’s history. “Good historians ask themselves: ‘Should I trust what this person is telling me?’” James Starrt, Historical Methods in Mass Communication, (New Jersey: Vision Press, 2003, 174). For too long, this question went unasked by many Beatles writers.
Ideally, in history, “a witness’s competence must be established for every particular fact.” In order to gain a more accurate understanding of Beatles history, every interview should have its credibility and accuracy analyzed. (Garraghan, 282) This analysis includes a critical assessment that goes beyond authorial agenda and examines the veracity of the interviews themselves.
In his book A Guide to Historical Method, Historian Gilbert Garraghan outlines some of the essential questions researchers must ask when encountering direct eyewitness testimony. Does the witness have a reputation for honesty, or exaggeration? Has other testimony provided by the witness been verified by independent sources? Does lying bring the witness any sort of advantage? Does telling the truth disadvantage them? Are they “constrained by the public character of their testimony,” which might be publicly challenged by others? Are they only “trustworthy in matters in which their own private interests … are not involved?” (Garraghan, 290). According to Garraghan, witnesses displaying “an air of sincerity” (Ibid) and accounts containing an excess of detail do not automatically grant testimony a greater amount of credibility. Twentieth historian and philosopher Marc Bloch offered similar requirements including “fatigue and emotion,” as well as the “degree of attention,” (Marc Bloch, The Historian’s Craft, 101) to the list of factors to take into account when analyzing the credibility of eyewitness testimony.
Few Beatles writers have applied this analysis to the interviews that make up the majority of their evidence. In addition, many books on the Beatles, particularly those published in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, failed to document their sources or provide bibliographies. The impact of this lack of documentation on Beatles historiography is immense. Information provided in these books and articles in the 1960s and 1970s was later repeated in individual and group biographies, but could not be traced to its original source. ‘Facts’ were passed from book to book and narrative to narrative and became an accepted part of the historical understanding without being separately verified. Beatles biographer Bob Spitz commented on the “the stunning lack of reliable source material” (Bob Spitz, The Beatles: The Biography, (New York: Little, Brown and Company, 2005), 861. in the afterword of his 2005 group biography, The Beatles. Fellow Beatles writer Mark Hertsgaard also condemned the lack of verified facts when researching the Fab Four:
One simply cannot trust that the ‘facts’ in most books about the Beatles are anything more than speculation, hearsay or opinion. The daily media reporting about the Beatles over the years was often careless or simpleminded. Book authors then compounded the confusion by making vast deductive leaps that then presented as truth, or by using technically factual evidence in selective ways, or by surmising what a given person, usually one of the Beatles, must have thought in a situation and then putting those words in his mouth. Authors rarely bothered to document their conclusions: very few books on the Beatles contain a list of citations in support of their claims.
Mark Hertsgaard, A Day in the Life: The Music and Artistry of the Beatles, (New York: Delacorte Press, 1995), xi
Other issues affect the credibility of the claims in some interviews given by the Beatles. The group members themselves admitted to lying in their interviews at times to simply disrupt the tedium of enduring endless rounds of questions. There is evidence to suggest that in some phone interviews, Beatles’ assistants Neil Aspinall and Mal Evans impersonated various Beatles, casting the legitimacy of those interviews into doubt. The sheer amount of sources available also poses a problem. With hundreds of interviews spread out over decades and across widely varying narratives, there is no shortage of contradictory testimony. Some aspects of Beatles history are reliant solely on memory, but there are multiple instances where one band member’s memory contradicts that of another. There are numerous times in Beatles history in which Lennon, McCartney, Harrison and Starr all provide noticeably differing accounts of the same event. At times, these contradictions in testimony can be attributed to the agendas of their respective authors. In other instances, they can be traced back to the faultiness of human memory, lack of attention at the time of the event or, particularly in the case of the Beatles, drug use. These conflicting versions, which concern a number of both inconsequential and extremely significant events in Beatles history, have forced many writers to cope with contradictory testimony.
How Beatles writers have dealt with conflicting eyewitness accounts varies wildly across the spectrum. Some authors either lacked access to or neglected to acknowledge the existence of contradictory accounts, choosing to relay only the testimony that reinforced their chosen thesis or burnished the reputation of their personal favorite Beatle. This omission of evidence produced flawed work that, while packaged as history, does not qualify as such. “The writer of a historical narrative must deal with the contradiction. You cannot pretend the contradiction doesn’t exist.” Richard Marius, A Short Guide to Writing About History, Second Edition, (New York: Harper Collins, 1995), 59 Others relayed the contradictory testimony that clashed with their version of events but only did so in order to critically analyze and attempt to discredit the contradictory account, while failing to apply any such standards to their other pieces of evidence. Few authors used critical source analysis equally on both original and contradictory testimony, or relayed differing accounts with impartiality.
For those readers who have read the book; do you prefer the stylistic approach taken in this excerpt, or the ultimate method used in The Beatles and the Historians? For all blog readers: what do you make of these standards? Are there any that surprise you, or that you disagree with, or would like further clarification on? And should I have kept this excerpt permanently in my deletions folder, rather than inflicting on you? All comments and questions are welcomed. (Hopefully, the video will be here soon).
Erin I’m glad you brought to light this version. I don’t feel that it was too academic or dry at all. It was really interesting. I enjoyed it. This may sound silly but I don’t have a strong preference for the published version over this one. I enjoyed both if that makes sense.
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Thanks, Linda.
I’m glad to hear you say that you don’t think I should have kept this in vaults.
I think my major issue with this structure — laying out all the historical methods rules, and then referring back to them throughout the book — was that it was simply too much information at the beginning; too many standards, too many similar rules. Readers would have to flip back to Chapter One repeatedly to see the in-depth explanation of the rules — sort of like when you’re reading Dostoevsky, and you have to keep flipping back to the list of characters each time a new one is introduced, because there are so many characters — and that gets frustrating after a point.
It also reminded me too strongly of Gilbert Garraghan’s work, “A Guide to Historical Method.” Now that is a very necessary book for historical methods — very nuts and bolts; if Source A says this, and Source B says this, here are the standards (1, 2, and 3) to determine accuracy and credibility — but it’s dry, and can be a bit of a slog. Of all the historical methods/historiography books I read, that was the most tedious. Bloch’s is probably the best — but one which I repeatedly referenced was Starrt’s “Historical Methods in Mass Media;” given that the Beatles were my subject, it offered a more current set of evaluations than Garraghan — writing in the 50’s — or Bloch — writing (and killed) in WWII, before the mass media era.
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This subject (the Beatles historiography) is so endlessly fascinating to me that I’m probably not the person to give the most objective opinion on whether or not something is dry. To me none of it is dry. But your point about having to flip back and forth to chapter one if you had included this makes sense. It would have broken the reader’s concentration. It’s nice though, to see the parts that didn’t make it. I don’t ever get to do that with a book I really like.
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Beatles historiography is endlessly fascinating to me, too. I thought when I finished the book I’d take a longer break than I did. Read up on other historical subjects, work through my to-read fiction list (which is a very long list) and get Real Life stuff done. And, with a five year old a seven year old, much of the RL stuff is non-negotiable.
But then I’d hear about a new Beatles book being published, or a documentary I hadn’t seen, and still want to look at it and analyze it. I wasn’t burnt out on the subject in the least.
“It’s nice though, to see the parts that didn’t make it. I don’t ever get to do that with a book I really like.”
Thanks! I know what you mean: I’d love to know what Lewisohn has in his research notes for “Tune In,” say; the stuff that we never get to see. I am going to the Sgt. Pepper conference with some Beatles authors in June, and in addition to the presentations, I hope to ask some of them about their work: I’m especially intrigued with Womack’s upcoming biography of George Martin. I’m assuming he either interviewed or, at least, requested to interview Judy Martin, which would be fascinating, because I can’t recall ever reading an interview with her.
You occasionally see threads in forums, or on shows like “Something About the Beatles,” which discuss which questions you would ask a particular Beatle or Beatles insider if they were forced, veritaserum style, to answer truthfully. But, to me, interviewing crucial Beatles authors and getting completely honest answers would be just interesting.
For example: if we could interview the (dead) Albert Goldman and ask him whether he genuinely went into “The Live of John Lennon” research as a fan of John, or whether he set out from day one to write a hatchet job. Ask Hunter Davies, when he was writing “The Authorized Biography,” how much of a façade he thinks the Beatles put on his presence, and did he see the cracks developing that helped lead to the split?
Ask Philip Norman about his conflicting reasoning for his anti-Paul bias: 2002: (I’m a John person) vs. 2016 (I wanted to be Paul and felt betrayed by him during the breakup). Ask him about the reasoning for his anti-George bias, because either reasoning for his virulently anti-Paul bias still doesn’t explain his equally virulent, although ultimately less in number, anti-George bias. Ask Wenner whether he genuinely believes, either then or now, that “Lennon Remembers” is/was the pseudo-scriptural source he pushes it as. Ask Sheff if he bothered to do almost any research before his 1980 Playboy interview.
Ask Barry Miles about the details of the archives Paul let him access for MYFN, and whether he genuinely believes Paul didn’t look at John’s versions of song attributions before Paul offered his own. Ask Fred Goodman why he chose to omit crucial sources and contradictory evidence in his Klein bio. Ask the (dead) Ray Coleman why he did a 180 on Paul from his dismissive, scornful depiction in his bios of John to his heaping him with praise in his 1995 Paul bio. The list is endless. Imagine how revealing all that information could be!
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To tag onto the end of that post: if you could ask any Beatles author or interviewer — of a primary or a secondary source — any question, or series of questions, what would it be? Whose research notes would you most want to see? Whose rough drafts would really interest you?
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Hmm. Interesting question.
I like your list, Erin. I envision myself pouring over Lewisohn’s notes and then comparing them to Norman’s–with Norman in the room. 🙂
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I’d honestly be more interested in Norman’s notes from either or both of his John or Paul bios. I believe, for Shout!, that Norman had full access to Davies’ notes, which had been originally compiled for The Authorized biography. Those would be interesting, too. Having said that, I’m sure Norman made his own notes for Shout!. (And, given that Lewisohn served as a researcher on Shout!, that would make the notes even more intriguing.)
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“I’d love to know what Lewisohn has in his research notes for “Tune In,” say; the stuff that we never get to see”
That would be a dream come true for me as would the material of any one of the other authors you mentioned. The questions you would ask Hunter Davies are so interesting. I would love to hear the answers. No one ever asked him those questions though? That seems odd to me. In 49 years not one interviewer ever asked him those questions? As for Goldman I think I read somewhere that he was never a fan of John and he did set out to write a tell all that would sell well. But of course unless you see that verified somewhere I could be wrong. I doubt he was a fan because first of all he was born in 1928 and second, he really seemed to have zero knowledge about the Beatles music and even less understanding. He described their music the way my father (born in 1924) would have described it, calling the tape loop effects on Tomorrow Never Knows, “jungle noises.” I’ve said before that his laughable, musical descriptions and his silly, irresponsible declarations that John had dyslexia and schizophrenia are what made me hate that book, plus his willful ignorance of the Beatles as a group in relation to John. Nothing else bothered me. I don’t know why people got so upset about the other stuff.
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“The questions you would ask Hunter Davies are so interesting. I would love to hear the answers. No one ever asked him those questions though? That seems odd to me. In 49 years not one interviewer ever asked him those questions?”
Davies has been asked questions like these before, but in this hypothetical scenario, he would have to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. After all, Davies has his own agenda. I want to stress that, overall, I like Davies work, including his newer stuff, such as “The Beatles Lyrics,” and, for all its weaknesses as an Authorized bio, I find it fairly credible. Davies’ has defended the Authorized Bio against critics like Spitz, Goldman or even John, with good reason. In Goldman’s eyes, Davies was nothing more than the Beatles’ propagandist. In other views, he’s their Authorized Biographer, and there’s an immense credibility gap between the two. (Personally, I lean far more toward the “Authorized Biographer” camp).
My understanding that Goldman went in to his John bio as a genuine fan of Lennon stems from comments Goldman made in the 1988 Life Cover story over the furor surrounding the book. In that interview, Goldman claims he started the project as a fan but, as he did his research, became bitterly disillusioned with John/Yoko and everything else. (I have the citation in my book, when I discuss TLOJL).
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“In Goldman’s eyes, Davies was nothing more than the Beatles’ propagandist”
I find that pretty ridiculous. Because he didn’t insist on going over every sordid detail of their sexual exploits and drug use? Yes there’s no doubt that The Authorized Biography is incomplete . So much of their lives were left out of it but at the time they had no choice in the matter, unless they were willing to expose the darker side of their lives to their wives and parents. Obviously they most certainly were not willing to do that. What Goldman fails to realize is the best thing about Davies’ book, which is the in the moment reporting. Davies records things as they’re happening. He was right there in the recording studio and Paul’s music room. Even more valuable is that he managed to capture the group dynamics as they were happening. So maybe he didn’t record for posterity every woman Lennon went down on and whether or not he “like(ed) it”, and maybe Davies never pondered the proverbial “was Lennon gay or wasn’t he”? But I think what Davies did do was a lot more interesting and more important. He captured the group’s ‘personality’, and their relationships with each other, both working and personal.
“Goldman claims he started the project as a fan but, as he did his research, became bitterly disillusioned with John/Yoko and everything else. (I have the citation in my book, when I discuss TLOJL).”
Oh ok. I do remember that. I can understand becoming disillusioned with someone after you start researching them, but I still wonder just what type of fan Goldman really was. Not much of one as far as I can tell. He just didn’t seem to have an interest in John.
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“I can understand becoming disillusioned with someone after you start researching them, but I still wonder just what type of fan Goldman really was. Not much of one as far as I can tell. He just didn’t seem to have an interest in John.’
I have many problems with Goldman’s work, but the biggest is probably his selective use of evidence in order to further his thesis. As you said; he didn’t seem to have any interest in John, or in the Beatles, except with the agenda to drag them through the muck. I can understand how, if Goldman genuinely did launch the bio as a genuine fan of John, he could have been disillusioned by some of what he discovered. But he appears far too ready to believe every negative thing, rather than analyzing its credibility, and comes off as a Puritan minister, condemning John and Yoko while gleefully wallowing in his own position to judge their bad behavior.
If Goldman’s disillusionment is what prompted this methodologically flawed work, then its interesting that his justification for the book’s excesses is identical to Norman’s, as presented in his Paul bio, for why his first thirty-five years of Beatles work was so egregiously biased against Paul. I don’t recall Goldman ever claiming self-identification with John the way Norman did with Paul, but given Karen’s and my discussion about the female fan (adoration) vs. the male fan (self-projection) that would be interesting to know.
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I don’t see a difference, Erin, really. I like them both.
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Well, thanks. I didn’t inflict this section on anyone — not even my good friend/history major, who was the first person to read every chapter, give edits and offer advice (and it helped, I think, that he doesn’t really like the Beatles) so I’m relieved to see it came across better than I thought.
Another aspect of this historical methods information dump was going to be a profile of both John and Paul (and, later, George and Ringo) regarding their overall credibility as sources. Not their credibility/accuracy regarding certain, specific interviews, such as “Lennon Remembers,” but just a general summary of issues to take into account when reading most sources from John, or most sources from Paul. I only got about two or three sentences into the John profile before scrapping that whole approach, though.
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“I only got about two or three sentences into the John profile before scrapping that whole approach, though”.
I’m curious, why did you scrap this approach? It seems like an interesting idea. What is your opinion on their overall credibility?
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Mainly I scrapped that approach because of publishing reasons: I wanted four chapters of relatively similar length, (and had an official word count I was supposed to be aiming for) and had already written fifteen pages for Chapter One but had yet to even really begin telling the Beatles story/background. I had too much material to cover in too little pages, which is why I scrapped that structure and went for the new one.
“What is your opinion on their overall credibility?”
Interesting question! Any response I gave now would be pretty incomplete: I’d like to go through my notes first, and perhaps turn that into an official post.
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“What is your opinion on their overall credibility?”
“Interesting question! Any response I gave now would be pretty incomplete: I’d like to go through my notes first, and perhaps turn that into an official post.”
That’s going to be interesting. I’m looking forward to it. Also I hope you can do a post on the Sgt. Pepper conference in June.
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Erin, it’s quite a while ago when you published this post, so I know I am a little late to comment and respond to your question. By the way I hope this will get thru moderation better than others that are still open.
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At the end you wonder what format works best:
“For those readers who have read the book; do you prefer the stylistic approach taken in this excerpt, or the ultimate method used in The Beatles and the Historians? For all blog readers: what do you make of these standards? Are there any that surprise you, or that you disagree with, or would like further clarification on? And should I have kept this excerpt permanently in my deletions folder, rather than inflicting on you? All comments and questions are welcomed. (Hopefully, the video will be here soon).”
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I like the stylistic approach used in your excerpt mora than the one used in the book. The new information is more accessible. I would suggest to keep nothing in your ‘deletions folder’ – and for one main reason only. Dialogue about the Beatles is flawed to the bone, facts and arguments are met with superficial non-arguments but gut feelings or romantic notions that people take from other fields in their own personal lives to the discussion of Beatles matters without weighing their own not so deep stuff. Applying source analysis to others, outside stuff, may be worthwhile but it is even more important for our own statements. If we are exploring Beatles’ matters than it would be worthwhile doing if we separate our own gut-stuff that comes without arguments and external facts, sources, confirmation etc. from verifiable arguments. The phrase ‘I think’ makes me superstitious about the N=1 statement, yet if it is followed by other verifiable arguments which raises the N=1 to a higher number, the validation and attraction of the argument rises.
Indeed, that can be dry and sloggish, but it helps so much to cut the crap and find good corn between too much chaff.
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As a Beatles’ fan, or a bit more, I once was interested in the notes of writers, because a writer has to tell a story in a way it sells, they, even as biographers, so they cannot and will not include all information, regardless whether these are verifiable facts or fiction. After having spoken or heard talking journalists/writers like Wenner and Norman I have lost interest. Biographers have a responsibility to distinguish between opinionated stuff (mostly irrelevant unless their agenda is clear) and what comes from other sources, and then they need to reveal details about their sources. Most of them don’t.
I prefer the documentation, objects, the archives and reporting from or about the spot. The fact that Mark Lewisohn, in marketing his biography, emphasises his archival approach shows how undeveloped, unprofessional or fan driven the Beatles market is. Far too often facts from his books are still being ignored in fan-forum-talk. I think his publishers should/could go even a step further and publish as many interesting documents as possible in a separate volume, similar to ‘Beatles Gear’ from Babiuk, the splendid work ‘Recording The Beatles’ by Ryan and Kehew, and ‘The Lennon Letters’ by Davies.
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